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 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"

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How would you rate "Over there - Part 1" ?
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Total Votes : 8
 

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jade86
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:23 pm

lezario wrote:
Nice ! Why don't you open an art thread ?

Unfortunately i haven't much time, because of the exams. Maybe this summer grins
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:25 pm

Good.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:47 pm

Yes, please do! This is very nice, thank you for sharing it with us!

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:08 pm

You're welcome! smile
Guys, do you remember when i talked about the Kabbalah and how it could be similar to Peter's prophecy?
I compared the red writing on the parchment with two images that i found interesting, because they have to do with the Kabbalah. This time i can't be wrong.....the fonts are the same grins

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 pm

There are Hebrew letters in the prophecy, as I said many times before.
But not all the prophecy is written in one and unique language. That, I'm sure of.

Like we mentionned before, I'm sure it's a mix of several things, indo-middle eastern-proche oriental writings.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:22 pm

lezario wrote:
There are Hebrew letters in the prophecy, as I said many times before.
But not all the prophecy is written in one and unique language. That, I'm sure of.

Like we mentionned before, I'm sure it's a mix of several things, indo-middle eastern-proche oriental writings.

Indeed. I meant only the red writing smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:42 pm

Since BR takes and uses ideas and themes from all kinds of literature, I would be more surprised if they followed one kind to a direct ending; for example, the parallels with Land of Laughs, or those novels about genetically altered kids with powers--- are quite strong, but blend off into the storyline of Fringe which is all its own.

So I think this is another blended object..and having faked up ancient documents myself, I think it might be fun for this to be a faked prophecy, and be found out...let's get Astrid on it! And Brandon!

....................Nina and Brandon both felt this was Bell's design, anyway (the infernal machine)...

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:53 pm

Ah, err, sorry.

But still, I think the red writing is not entirely hebrew.

I've started re writing the prophecy clearly, when I will have finished that report and my exams, I'll go back to translating and will post it. So far there are a lot of different meanings, nothing clear.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:23 pm

Same with the reliquary door on Walter's heart in 'Brown Betty'. More a general feeling than anything specific. Or the cards in the test box--they are processes, not all 4 processes, and hint but that is all.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:34 pm

It's all a mix.

Or maybe it is the most ancient language, and our languages derived from theirs ?

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:43 pm

It's later stuff than that.. we studied that imagery in art history, this is not from the dawn of written communication. Plus, I think we are over-thinking the signifigance of the characters used, I bet. Same as when people kept seeing references that they thought meant Fringe was a tie-in, or part of, LOST... making pattern when it wasn't there. I don't mind waiting to see what BR does with it..

I'm more interested in getting Olivia back to Peter, and Peter and Olivia back home, and them and Walter back having fun weird times------- and don't so much care how that is done, as long as it is done.

Plus, I want to see Peter wearing that purple tuxedo at his and Olivia's wedding.

Simple, really, like making taffy. grins

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:46 am

lezario wrote:
Ah, err, sorry.

But still, I think the red writing is not entirely hebrew.

I've started re writing the prophecy clearly, when I will have finished that report and my exams, I'll go back to translating and will post it. So far there are a lot of different meanings, nothing clear.

Oooooooohhhh..Thank you smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:52 pm

Some of the characters are Hebrew (I have no idea what you mean by proche, Lez, can you explain?)---and are used in the tarot/zodiac/alchemy intermix. That curvy sort of "h" symbol in the red writing is used in that mix to represent 'Air', so it is a cognate of the sort of 'A' symbol on the kayak and that guy's lapel pin in The Cure.

And one thing to think on/remember in this; a lot of the symbols when used this way are not a language, but a symbol set. You can't make a sentence, language, out of chemical symbols, for example, nor out of weather symbols; nor out of the alchemical symbols nor the kabbalah symbols either (though of course Hebrew is a language.) So treating the characters on these pages as 'text' may be incorrect. We need context, and don't have much.

----->on the blueprint that Peter is examining there is a line drawing of a young (Peter one guesses)--showing a height of 5'9"-------taller than he would have been at kidnapping, and shorter than he is now.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:16 pm

Quote :
(I have no idea what you mean by proche, Lez, can you explain?)

Moyen Orient = Middle Eastern
Proche Orient = Near East.

There are links between Tarots and Kabbalists with the המפורש (Shem ha mephorash), according to Eliphas Lévi's book... er "Clefs majeures...*something*"
He made pairs of the 216 letters forming a god's name and linked them to the Tarot cards.
The Shem ha mephorash circle looks a bit like Jacob's names wheel in Lost...

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:26 pm

ל is the 12th letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and correspond to the 12th Tarot card "the hunged man". In Hebrew it means staff/rod/stick.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:28 pm

Interesting smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:35 pm

But people here think the hebrew letters weren't used in the very first versions of the Tarot.

Tarot is played with figures (king, queen, knight and Jack), numbers (10, 9, 8...), Atouts (22 cards), and among these Atouts, three oudlers (Excuse, Petit, 21).

And that letters represented a scene... as a..... you know, an alphabet with drawings ?
As "A fir Apple", "B for Beach", "C for Chocolate"..... and the name of the scene started with the letter on the card.

Do you want me to write them all down ?

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:38 pm

If you want grins
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:44 pm

Here they are :

I. Le Bateleur (The Magician) א
II. La Papesse (High Priestess) ב
III. L’Impératrice (The Empress) ג
IV. L’Empereur (The Emperor) ד
V. Le Pape (The Hierophant/The Pope) ה
VI. L’Amoureux (The Lovers) ו
VII. Le Chariot (The Chariot) ז
VIII. La Justice (Justice) ח
IX. L’Hermite (The Hermit) ט
X La Roue de Fortune (Wheel of Fortune) י
XI. La Force (The Strenght) כ
XII. Le Pendu (The hanged man) ל
XIII. Arcane sans Nom/La Mort (Death) מ
XIIII. La Tempérence (Temperance) נ
XV. Le Diable (The Devil) ס
XVI. La Maison Dieu (The Tower) ע
XVII. L’Etoile (The Star) פ
XVIII. La Lune (The Moon) צ
XIX. Le Soleil (The Sun) ק
XX. Le Jugement (Judgement) ר
XXI. Le Monde (The World) ש
Sans numéro : Le Mat/Le fou (The Fool) ת

*

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Last edited by lezario on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:13 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:02 pm

Wowwww *.*
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:05 pm

Sorry, I'll add the translation right away.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:06 pm

ok smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:14 pm

I've added english translation, and I will added hebrew later, after finishing my report.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:55 pm

Thanks Lez.
Though, Bob save us from any linkage to LOST.

And while I appreciate your work, and Jade's, and a bit of my own, I am very reluctant to say we can translate this parchment with any certainty--it feels rather previous of us to say what they mean by using symbols that mean so many different things to so many different peoples.

I have Jewish friends for example that would tell you the Kabbalah is pseudo-intellectual claptrap, fakery. If not abomination. The same with the Tarot.

And while I brought up the alchemy linkage, and it is clear they are using those symbols in an alchemical context, I don't think they are actually using them to mean they are engaging in chemical wedding in Fringe.

Any more than I think they actually mean Peter is Superman, even though I brought that up too... you laughed out loud at that idea yourself................. for me a lot of the references they use are just that, references, stylistic touches, hints and poetic devices. They point us in a direction but aren't the destination.

(Walter for example translated that page of the Observer's diary in 'August' and it was a chemical the guy was referring to---Nitrogen, I think. A lot of symbols on that page, all just to mean one chemical----------- but it worked in the context of the story they were telling. The message was really a signal to Walter that he wanted to meet, it wasn't about the chemical at all.)

Almost every theory everyone has had about what stuff has meant in Fringe has turned out to be more/different/other than what is expected; this is one of the things I really love about Fringe, the unexpected, even to us who pore over every detail they can still be very surprising. It's like the magician doing sleight-of-hand.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x21 "Over there - Part 1"   Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:02 pm

Quote :
Though, Bob save us from any linkage to LOST.

They haven't built a numbers-and-names wheel on fringe yet, and they won't.

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