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 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"

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How would you rate "Over there - Part 2"
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Total Votes : 15
 

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Elliot
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Mon May 24, 2010 6:17 pm

It seems to be about travel, and choices--- and color.

One more cool thing I found in Peter's room there...a shadow that is not possible but is in more than one frame, so it is intentional: the shadow of a chess piece, a Bishop of course! --the base of the shadow is the lamp, but the top part is not.. smile and it only appears when Peter is in the light.


eta--------tinkering with color on the mantelpiece thing, it brings up more detail. Enhancing the red shows a dancer, the letters TJ, a pair of apples, and that the arrows on that latter are r,y,b (of course they are...):

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Mon May 24, 2010 7:49 pm

[img][/img]

I haven't see this posted here, my apologies if I missed it. All credit to the Fiery fringie, who shared this info elsewhere.

The hand glyph on the piano stool.


Amazing catch of the shadow!
Chess pieces as metaphors for humans always bothers me for some reason. Perhaps it's that it implies that our freedom of movement is not only in some ways dictated by the way we are and are not (As in: a bishop moves the way it does because it is a bishop and because it is not a queen), but in other ways dictated by another (the chess player who moves the bishop). Of course, the latter potentially leads to the belief that not only is our movement constrained (we act according to what nature and nurture gave us) but that our choices aren't in fact our own (we are pawns/bishops/etc in the service of our chess player).

If this metaphor isn't too strained in regard to Fringe, then my question is: Who are the chess players?
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Mon May 24, 2010 8:15 pm

Thanks for the awesome hand catch, and please tell Fiery thanks, and thanks for posting it here!

Just like I'm uncomfortable with destiny, which implies there's no free will, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of being manipulated by outside forces.

In childhood you Are manipulated and molded in directions, for better or worse. But other than personality flaws, I still like to think we are creatures of (relative free will).
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Mon May 24, 2010 8:53 pm

Quote :
If this metaphor isn't too strained in regard to Fringe, then my question is: Who are the chess players?

The writers ?

Quote :
In childhood you Are manipulated and molded in directions, for better or worse. But other than personality flaws, I still like to think we are creatures of (relative free will).

Car toys for boys, dolls for girls.
"Pink is a girl color" and other stupid things like that. MEH.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Mon May 24, 2010 9:03 pm

I agree on the metaphorical chess piece usage. For a zillion reasons I've mentioned here, I believe in free will, and chance, NOT FATE.

I don't believe there are "chess players" in this story.

I think this is more in keeping with all the other iconography here in Fringe: a symbol, communication from the writers/staff/whoever, to us the viewers. The shadow of Peter as a Bishop is that he is... Peter Bishop.

Even as I dredge up alchemical references and *ahem* even more (sorry folks) dopey astrological references, when I see the symbology, I don't think BR means everything is foreordained...... that's why they are at pains to point out the differences in the two universes and have the majority of them be because of choices made (rather than the falling of leaves or movement of rivers.)

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 1:11 am

Because Fringe is all about perception:

Perhaps there's significance in the fact that the shadow only appears for Peter and only in the alter-world.
So, maybe it's that in the alter-world Peter is seen as little more than a chess piece for Walternate (the man who sees himself as the chess master).

edit: rephrased - maybe it's that in the alter-world Waltnernate sees Peter as merely a chess piece in his larger game against Walter and our universe.

And perhaps it may also represent the growing (hopefully false) sense that Peter might have that he is merely a piece in the puzzle/game (especially if the shadow always appears behind him - looming as it were - rather than in front and how he projects himself toward the future).
I think, at the very least, this thought began for Peter in the finale. It will be interesting to see if it persists and he starts to believe that not only Walternate, but also Walter sees him as merely a piece (how sad would that be/ ).
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 1:35 am

HMMM47 wrote:
Because Fringe is all about perception:

Perhaps there's significance in the fact that the shadow only appears for Peter and only in the alter-world.
So, maybe it's that in the alter-world Peter is seen as little more than a chess piece for Walternate (the man who sees himself as the chess master).

edit: rephrased - maybe it's that in the alter-world Waltnernate sees Peter as merely a chess piece in his larger game against Walter and our universe.

And perhaps it may also represent the growing (hopefully false) sense that Peter might have that he is merely a piece in the puzzle/game (especially if the shadow always appears behind him - looming as it were - rather than in front and how he projects himself toward the future).
I think, at the very least, this thought began for Peter in the finale. It will be interesting to see if it persists and he starts to believe that not only Walternate, but also Walter sees him as merely a piece (how sad would that be/ ).

I can see it being that Walternate sees him that way (though I think it is early days to say what the shadow means, or if I have simply made everyone else here think it looks like a chess piece by saying so )---------- and he surely must feel that Walternate only sees him that way.

I don't think he feels Walter sees him that way; he himself noted Walter has risked his life (and those of everyone else in two universes) to save Peter's life--twice.

That's not a little gift and it must be hard to process that the man he thought for most of his life didn't love him at all has in reality gone mad, gone to hell and back, risked everything time and again, for him.

He may have survivor's guilt and feelings of responsibility mixed with self-loathing.... that helicopter ride not only showed what Walter had done, it must have run home to him that it was all because of him. (I hope they don't do too much dithering over that, having him waffle around about maybe he should stay and fix things, Olivia over here, Walter over here, blah blah blah it would become more like opera than I could stomach. After all, he did not cause it.)

When he goes this September to save Olivia, he will have more understanding of how Walter's love made him do things and never count the cost.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 7:30 am

Quote :
He may have survivor's guilt and feelings of responsibility mixed with self-loathing.... that helicopter ride not only showed what Walter had done, it must have run home to him that it was all because of him.

He thinks everything is his fault, when tells his mother in Part 1 that her mom from the other side may have comitted suicide because of him.

And i don't know why, but I'm sure it won't take long until he finds out it is not his Olivia. And yet, even if takes him only three days or less, he will still think he's responsible and will feel extremely guilty for leaving Liv over there.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 10:04 am

Hi guys! What do you think about the light from the lamp in Peter's apartment, in this scene?

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 10:06 am

There are a lot of these lights over there !

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 10:10 am

Yeah, i know! But i found interesting how the light lights up Peter's hand smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 10:18 am

Yes, well if Peter is ever attached to that device, I guess he'll light up.

I think it's also another way of making a difference between our world and theirs.
It's not only references, history that are different.... they have to find filming ways of showing us it's a different universe.

From 2x21 and 2x22 :





*

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 10:21 am

lezario wrote:
Yes, well if Peter is ever attached to that device, I guess he'll light up.

I meant the light from the lamp grins
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 11:30 am

I know what you meant.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 11:33 am

grins
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:02 pm

I think too, it is just a lens flare from that lamp. Even in scenes with lots of "blue flashes" they often mix those with lens flares, to keep us on our toes maybe. In "The same old story" there are loads and loads of blue flashes--when the baby begins to grow in her, when Christopher is taking her to the hospital, and so on; when Peter and Olivia are entering the warehouse to save the last victim there are also lens flares from their flashlights mixed in.

The glow in peter's hand from the Infernal Machine's interface is local color, a reflected light, it's not him glowing.

He glimmers, that is enough, no? grins

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:28 pm

Noticing that Peter's apartment # Over There was 107, I went back and re-watched 'The Equation' last night.

OMG.

There are lots of concordances between the two episodes, and some very interesting scenes that also foreshadow 'Bad Dreams' and 'Jacksonville'. I made some caps, and will post them a bit later, but-------take a look, we need to talk. Theories, I has theories.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:34 pm

Elliot you made me curious *.*
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:35 pm

Remember that I said, last year, that we should keep the apartment/hotel room numbers because they could mean something ?
I should have written all of them down.

The Equation is 108 scratch 107 is "In which we meet Mr Jones", isn't it ?

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:37 pm

I don't remember scratch
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:50 pm

Nope, I had them listed that way too but on the DVD, it's the Equation is #7 & In which... #8.

rough cuts as I don't have the caps on this machine:
--a boy kidnapped for his expertise
(--a boy whose mother is dead)
deceived into working on a scientific project (in order to serve someone else's ends)
....made to think his mother is alive......(theory #1.....)

plus the shots of the boy in that lab, the first shots of that. (theory #2)

and Lez, there's Superman, too.......

I'm going to go make coffee, and come back and upload pix.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:55 pm

On Fox website, they're listed as 1.07 "In which.." and 1x08 "The Equation".

If they released them in this order, they should have kept the same order.
Like Star Trek DVDs.

Because otherwise it's even more confusing thant the "Unearthed" episode.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 2:59 pm

Which is why I prefer names to numbers, harder to fool around with.

Tonight I will have a look at 'in which we meet' but i just can't see it having the same resonance to the finale as the equation did.

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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 4:11 pm

I found and interesting comment about "first people", that could have to do with the connection between the Observers and Peter.

....the "First People" storyline is not inspired by Lovecraft. I think it is inspired by a book from the same era, called, "The First and Last Men" by Olaf Stapledon (1930). This book is considered one of the original masterworks of scifi and is credited with being the first science fiction novel to postulate genetic engineering, hive minds, environmental degradation and many other things we see on Fringe. And like Fringe it includes the idea that the history of human evolution is important to understanding humans of the present day and what happens when people find out that they didn't arise naturally but were the product of genetic engineering of a past civilization.

Joe
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PostSubject: Re: 2x22 "Over there - Part 2"   Tue May 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Oh, I haven't thought about that book for ages! Thanks for this.

Related to that, I found the map that goes with that cartouche page in the apartment in OverThere. I'll post it, brb.

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