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 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion

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How would you rate "Marionette" ?
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Total Votes : 4
 

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PostSubject: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:24 pm

Promo Trailers
Spoiler:
 

Press release

Spoiler:
 

Promo pictures
Spoiler:
 

Sneak Peek
Spoiler:
 

Set Pictures
Spoiler:
 

*

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:06 pm

I wasn't expecting an exhilarating end like "Safe" to buoy me through the hiatus. Thank goodness Astrid tried to get through to her. The P/O team looks like it may be taking a break.

What a macabre scene with the man and his marionette. Gruesome organ reharvesting still concluded with him telling Olivia and Peter, [paraphrase] "Her eyes were open, but I didn't see her! " It would have been very spooky, even fun "Fringe" science, if not for P/O.

There was no explanation why the ballerina committed suicide. On "House", after watching Kutner's exit (beside the obvious reasons to go to work for the White House), it was pointed out again and again to House that sometimes there's no note, no reason why the person ended their own life.

But P/O. Olivia's anger seemed to tuck away her feelings when she first realized what Peter was trying to tell her, then boiled over at home as she wanted to wash everything, probably throw a few things away, too.

One of the more uncomfortable moments was when they were going over files of possible suspects. Olivia kept dismissing Peter's ideas, and yes, that was "my" Olivia shooting down idea after idea until Peter realized what was going on. Fortunately Peter did come across a good profile for a suspect. There may be uncharitable opinions about her passive agression, but, she only got to kiss Peter on the other side, she didn't get that lovers' intimacy. Alt-Liv stole that.

I knew there would be a reaction from Olivia, but hardening her heart was the worst choice. It's going to be a cold and lonely 6 weeks for Peter and the Benchies.

That last shot, Peter sitting by himself, saying out to the cold night air, "I'm sorry." *sob*

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:16 pm

Yes, a heap of ruins just before the hiatus. Thank you BR.
(at least Astrid saved the day - tried to...)
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:59 pm

It was extremely sad.

And the whole episode was built to get to that point, where she quotes the man who loved the dancer "I looked into her eyes and it wasn't her. Whatever I brought back it wasn't her."--------and says to Peter, "I don't want to be with you any more."

Pinkman love pulling the wings off flies, and breaking birds' wings, so I shouldn't have been surprised.

They could have done all the character development stuff without sticking a knife in her guts with Peter allowing fakelivia into his bed, him not noticing since he was getting what he wanted...they are happy to trash Peter and think they can distract us with him being the answer to life the universe and everything............. um, no, not if it destroys P/O. I don't get off on pain, and find turning Peter into a god embarrassing.

Luckily there are many weeks now for promos and sneaks and interviews, so Pinkman have a chance to redeem themselves by pointing to things getting less bleak.

I laughed twice in watching this episode, and not where you think.

1) where the mad scientist is hooking his marionette up to homemade scenery flying equipment modded with hydraulics; you could see the horror show scenes coming, very funny;
2) at the cafe where Peter tells Olivia what he's been up to in her absence, and he gets as*hole-defensive: " I came back for you. And then..."
Like fakelivia being able to take over her life, including her sex life, was not Peter's fault in the slightest, but Olivia's. "You made me." --------that subtle dark tone from Jackson, ugly emotion beautifully played. I wonder if that is his interpretation? Or was it direction?

I'm hanging onto the fact that Astrid tells Olivia the explication lines: "his emotions were about you, they were real, and they still are."

So---------- they will repair Peter and Olivia, and I hope they don't do the pointless "wait till the last episode of cancellation" to do it (as Bones' prods have said they will do with that show: Temperance is basically in hell now, for the rest of the series. How tasty, if your name is Old Clootie.)

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:15 pm

Elliot wrote:
1) where the mad scientist is hooking his marionette up to homemade scenery flying equipment modded with hydraulics; you could see the horror show scenes coming, very funny;

One of the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen... I watched it with a disgusted smirk on my face (And Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet music made it even more macabre)
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:17 pm

Whoosh.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:43 pm

Kreisler wrote:
Elliot wrote:
1) where the mad scientist is hooking his marionette up to homemade scenery flying equipment modded with hydraulics; you could see the horror show scenes coming, very funny;

One of the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen... I watched it with a disgusted smirk on my face (And Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet music made it even more macabre)
Yes!! You saw it the same way I did. I was laughing, but not because it was fun.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:51 pm

it was yucky ("dégueulasse" in French), sordid and ridiculous at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:11 pm

A perfect description.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:06 pm


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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:22 pm

Quote :
Can we expect more Nina Sharp in the second half of the Season. Love the work you all do, the best show on TV!
-Nina is an intrigral part of our show. Blair Brown is a brilliant actress.
---interesting non-answer...

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:58 pm

I hope time passes in the "Fringe" universe by Jan. 21st.

The way they are now, it will be useless to team Peter and Olivia up.

Like last night, *wince*, Olivia looks for a betrayal analogy in everything Peter says, Peter eventually becoming resigned and sad.

Astrid did try to help.

You know what I hope? I hope their cortexifan training as children will somehow come back into play. The mysterious little scene in "Bad Dreams", Walter told Peter to calm Olivia like the pairs of children had been taught, and Peter was instantly able to do it without knowing why.

Okay, I'm going to soothe my romantic fantasies with scenarios of how they meld back together in a cortexifan-required emergency.

But I'll try not to get too involved. I thought for weeks how Peter was going to rescue Olivia in "Bound", and he heard about it on his Iphone. Oh well!
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:26 pm

Cathy904 wrote:
I hope time passes in the "Fringe" universe by Jan. 21st.

The way they are now, it will be useless to team Peter and Olivia up.

Like last night, *wince*, Olivia looks for a betrayal analogy in everything Peter says, Peter eventually becoming resigned and sad.

Astrid did try to help.

You know what I hope? I hope their cortexifan training as children will somehow come back into play. The mysterious little scene in "Bad Dreams", Walter told Peter to calm Olivia like the pairs of children had been taught, and Peter was instantly able to do it without knowing why.

Okay, I'm going to soothe my romantic fantasies with scenarios of how they meld back together in a cortexifan-required emergency.

But I'll try not to get too involved. I thought for weeks how Peter was going to rescue Olivia in "Bound", and he heard about it on his Iphone. Oh well!


Sounds like a good plan to me! *tries to send Cathy's good sense to Pinkner & Wyman* *takes it to heart herself*

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:48 pm

lezario wrote:
John Noble's Twitter Session- Interesting Teasers and Tidbits - Updated!

Teasers and Tidbits, that was fun. For short periods of time, special occasions, and interviews, Twitter sounds like a good idea.

Thanks to another fan who wants to see more Lincoln Lee!

Glad you liked the optimistic fantasy, Elliot. Anything to lighten this blue Monday of an AfterShow Day.
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:35 am

Thank you for it; I had also watched Bones, and --really, the two episodes were the same story; beautiful sad episode with a great guest star, a watchman helping her, but devastating at the end--- and then fringe--- ack. It will be a relief not to have to watch Fringe for now.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:03 am

Nice recap: http://www.popstar.com/Shows/Fringe/Episodes/3.09/Recaps/1

Quote :
Later, Peter finds Olivia outside, head in her hands. She shies fromhis comforting touch. She finally tells him that Bolivia has takeneverything from her -- she doesn't want to wear her clothes, or live inher apartment...or be with him anymore. She tells him what Barrettsaid, and asks "She wasn't me. Why couldn't you see that?" If Peterreally loved her, she thinks, why couldn't he see that it wasn't her? She leaves, with Peter muttering apologies behind her. Well, Peter,what did you think, she'd just jump back into your arms?

... and a whole bucket of links to reviews and recaps, from Fringetelevision:
........... and a next-ep easteregg:
Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:34 am

I don't think Peter thought she would jump back into his arms at all. LOL. What a strange thing to say.

I think he was very surprised she SEEMED to take it so well after telling her everything at the cafeteria. Though when Walter asked about it, and he said she was fine, I think he was trying to tell himself she was fine, but I think he knew she probably wasn't. I thought this might be the way the writers would do it. Have her not show much emotion to start off with and then build it up as the episode went on. The fact that she gave it to him at the end, shows that for once she is outwardly dealing with things and that the fact it was to Peter, makes me hopefull for further down the road.

I was glad it all got dealt with in this episode. While I feel for both Olivia and Peter, to have them draw out the Olivia not knowing thing for episodes, would of killed the show off for me. It was done too long in the second part of season 2, so I was hoping they may have learned a lesson from that. It has all been laid out now and I think both of them can now deal with it in their own way. Peter was honest with her, which I liked. Probably abit too honest, but I think it was his way of beating up on himself.

Elsewhere I saw a comment about the kiss on the forehead he gave Olivia in the hospital was Peter's goodbye kiss to her. He knew how devastated she would be once she knew and from then for me he resigned himself to the inevitable. The conversation in the car with Walter said it all. Peter knew that once he told her, she would never see him in the same light again. Peter emotionally had completely shut down in this episode. He didn't fight her, in their last conversation. He sat there and listened and just let her have it out with him. His face and his small reply after she was gone said it all. I'm glad Olivia told him how she felt and I think Peter needed to hear that.

I'm still sad that the writers felt that they had to sacrifice Peter, so that they could give Olivia her personal breakdown. Like Elliot said, they could of done it another way, without defiling Peter in the process. When the writers started on this path, it was never going to end well. But, this episode was just brutual. I didn't expect that. Not sure what I expected, in how they would handle the aftermath. I suppose because it could of gone in a few different ways. Making Peter a total ass, is the way they went. When they deliberately shipped Frank off, so that Olivia wouldn't have to sleep with him, I saw that this was going to be onesided. If she had slept with Frank then it wouldn't have been so clear cut.

At least the arc is finished now and we can move on to other things. The whole MOTW thing was creepy and made my skin crawl. While I'm not a big fan of these sort of episodes, in some ways I miss seeing these sort of cases done occasionally. The show has been so different this season.

So it looks like Orci and Kurzman had no input (their ideas) so far this season. That explains why this season is so different. Must be all Joel and Jeff. Maybe the two ladies have had a big impact this season? Hence more soap opera/relationship stuff than we have had in the past. When it takes front and centre, as much as it has done this season, I'm not sure I like that.

The two ladies wrote this episode. What are everybody's thoughts on that? If two guys had written the episode, would it have been not quite so brutual? Or, was it always going to be their intention for this episode?
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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:25 am

justkickit wrote:
I was glad it all got dealt with in this episode. While I feel for both Olivia and Peter, to have them draw out the Olivia not knowing thing for episodes, would of killed the show off for me. It was done too long in the second part of season 2, so I was hoping they may have learned a lesson from that. It has all been laid out now and I think both of them can now deal with it in their own way. Peter was honest with her, which I liked. Probably abit too honest, but I think it was his way of beating up on himself.

Elsewhere I saw a comment about the kiss on the forehead he gave Olivia in the hospital was Peter's goodbye kiss to her.

I don't think so.  But I think the writers want us to worry that.

He knew how devastated she would be once she knew and from then for me he resigned himself to the inevitable. The conversation in the car with Walter said it all. Peter knew that once he told her, she would never see him in the same light again. Peter emotionally had completely shut down in this episode. He didn't fight her, in their last conversation. He sat there and listened and just let her have it out with him. His face and his small reply after she was gone said it all. I'm glad Olivia told him how she felt and I think Peter needed to hear that.

This, 100x.


I'm still sad that the writers felt that they had to sacrifice Peter, so that they could give Olivia her personal breakdown. Like Elliot said, they could of done it another way, without defiling Peter in the process. When the writers started on this path, it was never going to end well. But, this episode was just brutual. I didn't expect that. Not sure what I expected, in how they would handle the aftermath. I suppose because it could of gone in a few different ways. Making Peter a total ass, is the way they went. When they deliberately shipped Frank off, so that Olivia wouldn't have to sleep with him, I saw that this was going to be onesided. If she had slept with Frank then it wouldn't have been so clear cut.

Yes.  And then they reiterated when she said he was on vacation-----and that it never happened--because he was there the first week or so.  So this is all to hang Olivia on another cross.



At least the arc is finished now and we can move on to other things. The whole MOTW thing was creepy and made my skin crawl. While I'm not a big fan of these sort of episodes, in some ways I miss seeing these sort of cases done occasionally. The show has been so different this season.

I miss them!  I like mysteries and stories that make sense.

So it looks like Orci and Kurzman had no input (their ideas) so far this season. That explains why this season is so different. Must be all Joel and Jeff. Maybe the two ladies have had a big impact this season? Hence more soap opera/relationship stuff than we have had in the past. When it takes front and centre, as much as it has done this season, I'm not sure I like that.

I hate it.

The two ladies wrote this episode. What are everybody's thoughts on that? If two guys had written the episode, would it have been not quite so brutual? Or, was it always going to be their intention for this episode?


I think it was always the intention (Pinkman); plus, they job out the episodes but not the content, I think.  And I thought about those women writers today, and----unless I see otherwise in other things they've written, it is either wholly Pinkman, or- women writing in the voice of men, as they are employed by men, and writing in a genre that doesn't yet think women are fully human.

And in thinking about this today, the whole stolen identity thing, this is what I came up with:

1) everybody on our team failed a huge test (noticing she was gone) miserably.
2) it was a test no human will ever have to face, and so, set up by the writers so that they would fail. Peter is smarter than that, Walter too, Astrid--heck, everyone there knew her better than that; it was invalid, a crock.  Completely unbelieveable except maybe a few hours.
3) since it was set up to fail, what was it for?
4) titillation (November sweeps, focus groups, possible Pinkner crush on Torv)
5) to destroy Peter, make him hated by Olivia and the fans
6) to leave her totally alone and in massive pain.
7) soap opera-daytime tv bilge/writers bored/writers confused

----reading reviews yesterday, I think I had not taken focus groups & writer panic into account as much as I should have.  I knew I hated how the show was going,  but hadn't realized how much panning was going on, critically.  It does explain stooping to buying off critics with cameo roles, and if they were madly shopping to focus groups, that would explain the sort of tossed-salad effect this season, where all is a stupid mishmash and good, interesting plot points and characters were misused or not used.

All that said........ I don't think they will completely write off Peter and Olivia; that last interview with both Torv and Jackson, she says it would be forgiveable, and he says he hopes so, or he will be in trouble the rest of the season.... and I think too, the writers will finally have realized that having Torv and Jackson in bed is not a substitute for Peter and Olivia in love with each other; a funny lesson they are teaching themselves, you know?  You aren't interchangeable just because you look a lot alike.

My hope is that they can the B&S team, pronto, and plead, plead to have Orci and Kurtzman back.  Pinkner and Wyman may be aces at weird effects and quirky story action, but they are hopeless at humans.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:57 pm


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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:25 pm

Ack! I saw that, some hideous suggestions there. I don't think Peter thinks he's stuck with a defective marionette now, do you think he does?

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:47 pm

No, he's not.

Olivia's perfectly fine. She just needs to wipe up this make up, get rid of this tattoo, wash that MIT shirt (someone on FF wrote a "Making It Through / MIT shirt fic, nice !) and ask Peter to wear it and steal it from Peter and wear it.

And buy some new furnitures and clothes.
I don't want her to live her appartment, they spent so much times creating something nice, that I would like her to stay.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Remember that? They were changing her apartment around when we met.

At least all new stuff--and you are right, she doesn't need to change herself fundamentally, that is weird on the part of Pinkman, they need to let up on poor Olivia. And stop making Peter that stupid. In fact the whole storyline (of nobody noticing) is so bad, I am declaring it bogus, fake, and a mammoth mistake on the part of the writers. So bad that I would still happily accept a Dallas-solution (no, not the grassy knoll! I'm not that mad yet!)--where Olivia wakes up after coming back (with Peter and Walter), her phone rings and it is Peter, thanking her for making him come home. Complete reboot; Walter got one, why not Olivia & Peter?

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:54 pm

A wonderful comment from someone on tumblr:

onlifeandotherdemons reblogged your post: Creepy quote from FringeTelevision review of ‘Marionette’
I am not sure Peter has had time to really grasp anything that happened to him but when he does he should realize that he had that perfect relationship because he was being played and Altliv wanted him to be just happy so he didn’t suspect anything, it wasn’t real. Altliv is less intense and quicker with a smile but the Olivia he was with wasn’t really AltLiv either, it was an Olivia AltLiv constructed and played, a characterization based on what she realized Peter wanted in the relationship. So whatever feelings he has is not even for Altliv but for the part played by Altliv, maybe he should try the yellow universe for his ideal version of Olivia IDK But our Olivia definetely is not a faulty replacement of any kind

------though of course I believe all his feelings are for Olivia, he just was fooled by the fake; we know he's easily fooled by our Olivia too.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:17 pm

All his feelings were for what he thinks Olivia would become if she was happier --- still the same, but smiling more often, less burden, etc.

At first, I thought Peter was disappointed that Olivia would remain broken, wall-ed... But, after rewatching the episode, it felt as if Peter was disappointed about Olivia keeping her anger inside and not yelling at him, punching him...

And the scene were they arrived at the crime scene, Peter is surprised to see her but deep down I thinking he was all "that's my Olivia, no good at sitting around."

I think Peter was too much happy thinking he could make Olivia happy, that he just misinterpreted the signs.

Still, he should have known.

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PostSubject: Re: 3x09 "Marionette" - Episode Discussion   Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:27 pm

That is a very good assessment, I like that a lot. And he needs to tell her those things, and she will listen.

And I think--maybe when he can catch her out of the sky for a moment, sort of 'here scared bird perch on my finger', he can say: ok, I did those things with her, but I would have grown tired of her because she isn't you. She was the candy store, but you are the banquet, all the real emotions, all the heart, and it is you I love, you I want.

He will even like it when she yells at him, because it is real, and because he will know she wouldn't have been hurt so much if she didn't care for him so much. So her anger means he matters to her, and not for some world saving powers but because she loves him.

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